Teachers spying on Facebook is wrong
School administrators in Eden Prairie figured out how to “log-on” to Facebook and cruise student profiles looking for trouble.
They found it. And more than 100 students and suspended some from sports and other extracurricular activities as a result of candid partying photos.
While it’s true nobody can prove there was alcohol in those Coors cans or shot glasses, a photo is damning evidence, and there’s no question these kids are idiots if they didn’t think the photos would get out.
Even some of the students’ peers think the kids brought it on themselves. There’s a Facebook group called EP High School has NOT Gone Too Far sporting 19 members!
This story says some EP high school student parents are considering legal action, and while that may be too far for guilty kids, I hope this raises some discussion about how far a public school’s reach into the daily lives of students should go after the bell rings at 3 o’clock.
All citizens have a right to privacy. While you can argue that uploading photos to a social network waives that right, it’s important to remember that Facebook only allows your friends or people in your network to view your photos. So the teacher who found the photos didn’t just stumble upon them. He had to friend a student or join their network.
Let’s take it a step further. What if the teacher who found the photos found something other than typical teenage drinking photos on Facebook? What if it was two students having sex? Does that violate school policy after they leave class? Would he have the students arrested for statutory rape?
I realize teachers are mandatory reporters, but does that count if you’re doing online investigations into students’ private lives? Mandated reporters are for when kids are being abused and bring it to a teacher. It’s not a badge for carte blanche online research.
Just because an individual is your student, does that give you a right to read their blogs, look at their personal photos and peruse their favorite movies and bands?
And that level of engagement raises another question: What if the teacher himself developed a relationship with a student on Facebook? Then wouldn’t the school administration’s outcry be about keeping teachers off Facebook?
Today students at EP High school are planning a walkout, and I have a suggestion for what they should do with their free time today.
They should start Googling every teacher involved, pull free online background checks, access the state salary database, find their personal blogs, Flickr accounts, real estate valuations, etc., and then spread around their pictures and personal information like it’s candy.
Sure, this is a teacher’s personal life after they leave the school at 3 o’clock, but it’s online, so it’s fair game — right?
Updates to this post after the jump…
UPDATE: Jason DeRusha at WCCO left a comment that school officials were delivered the pictures by another student (not by teachers snooping on Facebook). I went back and read the Star Tribune and KARE 11 stories and can tell why I was confused: “after obtaining Facebook photos,” “administrators had printed out,” and “party photos were seen on the Facebook social networking site.” I suppose we’ll have to wait and see how this all shakes out.
UPDATE 2: WCCO has footage of students walking out. Jason DeRusha gives you the chance to weigh in on tonight’s Good Question: Why Do Parents Defend Their Kids Instead of Schools?
UPDATE 3: My coworker has two kids who are students at EP High School. They say the pictures were turned into the principal on a disc anonymously. They don’t know any of the students involved but are feeling very invaded by the school using hearsay Facebook evidence to punish kids. It’s much different than a police report.
Two e-mails were sent to parents yesterday - one from the principal and one from the superintendent — neither of which my coworker felt openly and honestly explained the situation or repercussions. Also, it isn’t clear what happened to students pictured drinking who were not involved in extra-curricular activities and who did not sign a promissory note on substance abuse.
My coworker says there’s a picture of her daughter drinking sparkling grape juice in a champagne flute on Facebook, but she hasn’t been “caught” (yet).
“Hearsay Facebook evidence” could be the buzzphrase of 2008!
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“They should start Googling every teacher involved, pull free online background checks, access the state salary database, find their personal blogs, Flickr accounts, real estate valuations, etc., and then spread around their pictures and personal information like it’s candy.”
EXACTLY RIGHT.who knows what sorts of bad stuff teachers and administrators are doing?!?!?! it’s not private if it’s online!!!!
i think there’s a legal term that describes the administrators action … reasonable. is it reasonable for them to go hunting for online pictures, without evidence kids were coming to school/sports smashed? probably not.
It seems most people who think the kids had it coming are really just hung up on teen drinking, which happens regardless.
Greg, the school says they didn’t snoop or log on to facebook, rather they were delivered the pictures through someone.
Basically, someone who’s on the “friend” lists of the E.P. students ratted out their “buddies.”
Hats off to the EP teachers!!!!!!!
There is an assumed responsibility placed on the shoulders of the teachers by the parents. That mantle of responsibility carries some privileges … monitoring the students’ activities is one of them. After all, it does seem these days that no one can do it all. So the parents and teachers must depend on each other so the safety of the child is maintained.
Hats off to the EP teachers!!!!!!!
There is an assumed responsibility placed on the shoulders of the teachers by the parents. That mantle of responsibility carries some privileges … monitoring the students’ activities is one of them. After all, it does seem these days that no one can do it all. So the parents and teachers must depend on each other so the safety of the child is maintained.
Weren’t most of the students that were disciplined athletes that had signed a contract stating, among other things, they wouldn’t drink alcohol during the season? I know we had to sign something like that in high school. And if we got caught breaking that contract, we were disciplined. Seems these kids and their parents are just pissed they got caught. Sure, underage drinking will always happen, I did it myself. But if you are stupid enough to put photos of yourself/others doing something illegal out there for public consumption (and yes, Facebook would be considered public consumption, its not tough to copy a photo out there and pass it along in other formats), you are bound to get caught and punished.
My employer took these steps when hiring me: Performed a background check, googled my name, perused my flick account, all that crap. I half-expected it and was not that surprised when they brought up information they found about me online during an interview. It’s the world we live in now, gobs of information is at our fingertips. You need to learn to be selective in the information you willingly post about yourself online.
I’m having a hard time analyzing the objective facts of the situation in light of my disdain for entitled EP kids and their “my child can do no wrong” parents.
Having once been a mandated reporter, I’d like to say that it’s not your responsibility (or duty, or obligation) as a mandated reporter to go hunting for bad stuff to report — only that if you suspect or have been provided with evidence of neglect/abuse, it must be reported. And, maybe it’s different for teachers, not having been one, but I was only mandated to report child/vulnerable adult abuse/neglect, or suicidal tendencies to social services/law enforcement.
I think mandated reporting is highly confused here. I mean, I don’t *want* my 17-year-old to be drinking, but isn’t it my job as parent to deal with that? Not sure how my dad would have taken to my social studies teacher policing my teenage habits…
While posting pictures of yourself (or allowing yourself to be tagged in pictures of) illegal actions on Facebook is about the dumbest thing I can imagine, what lesson is being taught to these kids via the school? Hide your indiscretions better?
Some day - hopefully - the Internet will allow everyone to know everyone else’s secrets. What a beautiful world.
I think its wrong for the school to police the kids when there off school grounds. But the kids better get used to it. Our employers do the same thing. And people do get terminated for there political beliefs. Religious beliefs or in my case lack of beliefs. We get reprimanded for writing our elected officials. I went through that. So kids get used to all this policing , invasion of privacy. Its going to get worse.
I’m a student at EP. Most of the early press stories were based on student rumor. The teachers weren’t cruising facebook, the pictures were anonymously given to the principal. He is then legally required to act (the administration consulted their lawyers about this. They were legally bound by the MSHSL contracts). I would like to apologize for the ridiculous reactions of my peers. I’m aware how moronic many of the statements of EPHS students sounded and would like to assure you that not all of us believe we live in a consequence free fantasy world.
I have my doubts that the EP teachers or school administrators were out “spying” on their students (and spying implies some sort of covert observation - hardly the case when information is posted in a public forum). Far more likely that someone brought these pictures to the attention of the school. High school athletic departments are obligated (by their membership in state athletic associations) to investigate all such incidents and these particular students are told what their expected behavior is (e.g. no drinking) and what are the resulting penalties. As for the other high school students “caught”, public schools have a societal expectation to condone such behavior although perhaps it is less clear as to the type of punishments they should impose. Certainly some of the cases described in the news reports seem relatively innocuous but at the least students need to be made aware that this isn’t a smart thing to do.
Frankly though the bigger issue is the complete disregard that a large segment of the population (not simply high school students) has towards keeping their private lives private and an unbelievable ignorance of the consequences for not doing so (yes, hiding or at least not publicizing one’s transgressions is better than flaunting them …). Acts of (mis)behavior don’t magically become permitted once you leave the office or school or church - personal reputations transcend specific locales and social groups. And it is certainly one thing to appear drunk in publicly posted pictures, but to do so when you are underage is practically challenging a reaction.
As a parent of three high school students/athletes, I would absolutely support my high school principal should my kids pull such an stupid stunt. A) The principal is legally bound to investigate and B) the kids are legally bound to their athletic association contract. AND their parents are legally bound to be investigated if they knew their kids were drinking. Gee, isn’t being a law abiding citizen a bitch?
This is ridiculous. Who really cares anyway. Hey parents, you did the same stuff when you were a kid and don’t deny it. These are teachers, their job is to teach. They need to spend proactive time on doing a better job of teaching, not acting as the Eden Prairie police department. More liberal bullsh1t, for certain. Oh, by the way, I’m a 44 year old adult.
So let me get this straight.
A bunch of kids partook in some underage drinking. Not advisable, but not unheard of.
It’s incredibly shortsighted to think that you’re going to be in that situation and there’s not going to be someone with a camera. Cameras on cell phones are ubiquitous. If anyone’s surprised that those photos showed up on Facebook, they’re retarded.
That was pretty uncool of whoever it was that turned them in to the principal. I’d like to know the motive. Vindictive grudge-holder? Bitter jealousy? Assholitry?
So once a principal has that info, they’re required to act. Got it.
The current debate is (and should be) over what actions the school administration took. And then there’s the larger privacy issue. Which is pretty much what Roger said.
And while I was trying to be understanding of the misunderstood youth, I’m back to entitled EP kids. But thanks to John for speaking up and disproving the blanket statement I just made.
I read a lot of career-oriented blogs and the hot topic right now is Gen Y/Millenials and how their workplace expectations are different and what shifts in workplace culture are reasonable, inevitable, etc. (which is the argument you’re going to have with every generation, but whatever). The main difference is that a) people do live their lives online and b) they prefer to work weird hours, presuming they actually like what they’re doing.
My point being that this seems to come down to these kids having not yet experienced the ramifictions of having their personal bidness online. And they will experience ramifications down the line. Which is what Bill said.
God, I sound old. “These kids.” What is happening to me?
John’s right, MSHSL rules pretty much say that if there’s evidence of drinking and drug use you have to be suspended from sports or extracurricular activities. Also, maybe these kids should put pictures of themselves drinking on Facebook. That’s just poor decision making on their part. Also, who’s the asshole who turned the photos over. I’ll bet that someone’s parents gained access to their kid’s Facebook profile and said, “Oh my stars!” and then being the asshole parent that s/he is, turned over the pictures to the principal.
Someone’s parents totally turned over that disk after spying on their own kids.
“I read a lot of career oriented blogs…”
That makes me think of the awful consequences that resulted. I know the EP spoiled rich kids thing clouds what’s “right” here, but think about it. Let’s say 70 percent of kids drink at some point in high school. Those student athletes who are pictured w/ a glass of alcohol are getting punished for life — no more scholarships. The competition for college and later, a job, is now off track.
The people saying there’s a “legal obligation” for policing kids out of school clearly haven’t thought this through. There’s no “legal obligation” for a certain punishment. This could have been a teaching moment for thoughtful administrators.
“Have not yet experienced the ramifications of having their personal bidness online.” Was this the right way to do it? Should we expect kids to be responsible with what they put online? Should they pay with scholarships and marks on their records when they were given no notice that their personal pictures would be looked through?
I see kids doing dumb things but school administrators potentially ruining some futures because of this. If your first reaction to that statement was “well they brought it on themselves!” then you don’t know how many high school students drink, or you can’t think of this beyond “totally deserved” OR “totally undeserved.” I think it’s mostly undeserved.
Monitoring behavior beyond the school walls is not only creepy, it supplants the parents. And, like I said, the punishment is much too severe.
It’s not the school doing the monitoring, it’s the MSHSL. They tie the schools hands. I don’t think that they have to worry about losing scholarships over this, Yep. In fact, some crazy stuff went down at my rich kids’ school back in the day that resulted in the same type of thing. Schools aren’t going to drop scholarships over this. They’ll live.
Once again, I’d like to say that someone’s nosy parents probably got into their Facebook profile and then saw the photos and was like, “Oh my stars!” and then put it on a disk and handed it in. Teachers/Principal could probably care less about monitoring outside of the school, it was probably a parent who insisted that they do something, so they had to act. Yeah, I’m definitely going to go with that one.
Why did the EP administrators even look at the anonymously provided CD? Should one ever pay attention to anonymous snitch’s requests? And BTW, what was the snitch’s motives? Whoever he or she is, they should be quite pleased by now.I see the phrase frequently that school administrators are mandatory reporters - aren’t they mandatory reporters of violations that they personally witness, certianly they do not have to investigate hearsay. That would be a ridiculous waste of their time.
Ok, photos may not be hearsay, but photos do not prove that these students possessed or consumed alcohol.
Imagine how much time it took for the EP administrators to look through the photos on the disk, review Facebook (if they did), identify EP students, contact the students, and then interview them. Or did the snitch also identify the students on the anonymous disk. And then there were phone calls to school lawyers, and the MSHSL, and then meetings to mete out punishment, and memos, on an on. How many staff-hours did this take and at what cost?
Here’s how to really make a school adminstrators day. First, download 400 photos to discs from Facebook, then send it anonymously via the mail to the Principle of Suburban X High. Include a non-traceable note that states, “Enclosed are photos, some of which may contain Suburban X HS students violating school and MSHSL Codes.” Watch the Admin Office spin.
“Oh my stars!” — I totally heard that in my mom’s voice. Weird.
I don’t think “we all did it when we were kids” and “most of them are doing it” justifies their behavior nor does it justify there being *no* consequences.
Should we expect kids to be responsible with what they put online? - If they can be responsible enough to be online, they ought to be responsible about what they put up there.
I think saying some kids’ lives have been ruined by this is overstating the case.
Bottom line: 1) It’s not necessarily appropriate for activity outside of school to have this kind of impact in school and there’s obviously some disagreement on boundaries. 2) The kids that all got caught were dumb to have gotten caught.
I also like how, for all the talk of a walkout, there were only, what, 15-20 kids that actually did (out of 3300)?
“If they can be responsible enough to be online, they ought to be responsible about what they put up there.” Kids are dumb. No one really has a handle on this online privacy, and we especially shouldn’t expect kids to know “hey this thing you use to talk to your friends — it’ll get you in TONS OF TROUBLE!!!” I mean, they’re kids and they’re dumb. I just don’t think the consequences fit their dumbness.
Would the school be okay with a parent who went looking at open Myspace/Xanga blogs and emailed them every mention of booze? Or, like someone said, flickr accounts?
I think the real problem here is the discomfort with kids drinking (normal) and the range of crappy options the school has in dealing with that.
I’m not sure what the school can do, short of kicking kids off teams if they visibly show up to practice smelling like booze, or something like that. I do know parents should FIRST be involved if it’s off school grounds, however. That just makes sense.
“I do know parents should FIRST be involved if it’s off school grounds, however. That just makes sense.”
and i think the diverging opinions on the conduct of the administrators proves this. some people think what they did is okay — because they acted as they as parents would. other parents expect some drinking and hope it’s responsible — they would like the first say in how discipline off school grounds is conducted.
it’s a matter of opinion off school grounds, so the school should respect that.
“Not sure how my dad would have taken to my social studies teacher policing my teenage habits…” A responsible parent would thank the teacher for possibly saving your life. Ever heard of it takes a village? No parent can know what their kid is doing all the time and has to rely on other adults to help them. I don’t judge the parents in this case unless they try to inable the kids by trying to get them out of the consequences of their actions. These kids are being taught a lesson for a fairly cheap price. No of them were killed or maimed for their irresponsible behavior, but maybe now they will think twice about drinking underage. School sponsored activities is not a right. If they didn’t want to abide by the rules then don’t sign the contract.
This reminds me of a personal situation. I was the spyer. My son had a MySpace account on the condition that his Mother and I had complete and total access to the account. One day. I was snooping and his account was clean. No bad language, no damning photos/videos. Good boy! However, when I started checking out his friends pages, I found a video that was shot by one of my sons’ friends of another kid in the neighborhood. This boy, we’ll call him Sam, is developmentally challenged. He goes to school, and can hold the simplest jobs, but will probably never live on his own. Anyway, in the video, Sam is being taunted by other kids and told to lick his shoe and he can fly. I could identify several neighborhood kids’ voices in the video, including my son and Sam’s brother who is not challenged. I was shocked and saddened, watching this young man being laughed at and mocked on a public website for all the world to see. Yes, I called his Mother and had her watch the video. Did it hurt her? Yes. Would I do it again? In a heart beat. As parents we have to stay together to keep our kids safe. If the EP Administration can help with that, more power to them. Part of growing up is accepting responsibility for the stupid things we do. To get caught doing something you shouldn’t have and then turn around and blame the school for punishing you for that stupid act a sad commentary on who we are today.
Yep said: “Kids are dumb. No one really has a handle on this online privacy, and we especially shouldn’t expect kids to know “hey this thing you use to talk to your friends — it’ll get you in TONS OF TROUBLE!!!” I mean, they’re kids and they’re dumb. I just don’t think the consequences fit their dumbness.”
In the same post, Yep said: “I do know parents should FIRST be involved if it’s off school grounds, however. That just makes sense.”
Um, where are the parents when kids are being “dumb?” How do you raise a kid to high school age and not teach them that actions have consequences? If we can agree that actions do have consequences, and those consequences are spelled out (for example, in the contracts they sign in which they agree not to use alcohol or drugs), then why is anyone upset about this? Oh, right. Eden Prairie. The same rules don’t apply when your household income exceeds $100,000 per year.
If this happened at South or Washburn or Henry or Edison, no one would be making an issue of it.
I’m not privy to all of the details of the situation, but from what reporting I’ve read, the school administrators did what was required of them by law and their contracts. I am a parent, and I applaud the school for taking their responsibilities seriously. Obviously, the kids didn’t take their responsibilities seriously.
For commenters like 44-year-old Bobby who complains that we all “did the same stuff” when we were kids — yes, I did do some dumb stuff when I was a teenager. Most of the time I paid for it, and the few times I did dumb stuff and didn’t get caught, hurt, or embarrassed, I still figured out pretty quickly that doing dumb things is dumb, and eventually will lead to negative consequences, even if it didn’t this particular time. How is this Facebook instance any different than any of the times any of us got caught doing something dumb?
“As parents we have to stay together to keep our kids safe. If the EP Administration can help with that, more power to them.” Exactly, the EP administration does a dis-service to parents by going around them to punish kids for out-of-school conduct.
fkajames: I think we agree? Where are those parents? They need to be involved. I think this applies any where — I have no stake in the outcome of the punishment of some high school kids, whereever they go to school. What freaks me out is people in authority using information as an excuse to do extreme things. It should be drinking picture –> speak with parents –> meetings about what to do and speaking with school community –> punishment, whatever that may be. It shouldn’t be drinking picture –> punishment. That just sets of the awfulness that’s going on now, where kids are once again against the authority figures/parents, rather than understanding what the big deal was about. …that’s what I meant about teaching moment above.
Everyone keeps bringing up the law like it somehow makes everything right to do things legally. Here, it’s a matter of tact and respect for parents and their kids’ privacy. If I knew creepy administrators were looking at my sons and daughters online, I’d want to know how much other money they are wasting. I should be able to dictate the consequences of my child’s actions outside of school; the school should deal with consequences of a child’s actions while in school.
“How is this Facebook instance any different than any of the times any of us got caught..” Because the huge amounts of data available on anyone online is no excuse to go delving into the data in order to dish out punishments for conduct outside of school. There’s more pictures, blogs, etc. Administrators need to be more careful w/ going through things so students can trust them, so parents are in the loop, and so people can work together to solve the problem — rather than getting entrenched for a fight.