Stop Stealing Links
Open letter to the Rake Forums MNspeak:
Dear Rake forums MNspeak,
Knock it off.
There is lots of info to go around and it’s entirely possible for lots of people to come across something – especially a news item – independently. We all have the right to spread what information we find interesting and perhaps useful to our respective audiences. Maybe you don’t get to something in a timely fashion and forget where you found it in the first place.
But this was blatantly taken from us. Items are routinely taken from Mediation without attribution.
This is all I’m asking for:
(via)
Just that. You don’t even have to say my name.
This is a broader blogging courtesy issue, but since we’re all trying to serve overlapping audiences, I’m calling on you, Rake forums MNspeak, and every blogger and commenter in the Twin Cities to be nice and throw a link to your source wherever possible. I’ll do my best to do the same.
Thanks,
Erica
A bunch of bloggers and I were devising a betting pool as to which link on Mediation would show up on MNspeak the next day. Although it was pretty funny, we never got serious enough to build the infrastructure to get it going.
I also heard a story about why they stopped using the hat-tips or the “[via],” but I heard it second hand and I’m not really in the place to relay it.
All I know is that if you spread the link-love around, people you link to will be more inclined to link back and send some traffic back your way. Maybe even started reading if they weren’t reading you before. You don’t exist in a vacuum.
I don’t know why I haven’t given up yet on MNspeak. The whole train wreck thing, I guess.
I don’t know why I haven’t given up yet on MNspeak. The whole train wreck thing, I guess.
I think Metroblogging Minneapolis has an opportunity to match up against MNspeak. As do a number or projects out there.
Link, discussion. Link, discussion. Scoop the stories when you see them. Have speed. Having a the story-long posts from other authors is still a great thing too.
-Aaron
I think Metroblogging Minneapolis has an opportunity to match up against MNspeak.
Ehhhh…
I don’t think we want to. Or, to be clear, we certainly don’t want to be MNspeak or take up where they leave off when they finally go down for good.
Obviously we’d like to have the traffic and participation that they do. Who wouldn’t? I wish we had some of the community features they did. We have our angle — the first person look at what it’s like to live in the Twin Cities — and that’s what we try to do.
Not to make excuses, but with a volunteer corps and without the crowdsourcing, it’s hard to keep up.
Would our readers be receptive to a less bloggy, more fast-paced linkbloggy style from us? We could try it and see. But I’ve already said that I hate the rat race. And I’ve gotten the feedback that that’s not why a lot our current readers come here. Is there anybody that does want to do it? Hit me. I’ll sign you up.
I like the bloggy style as opposed to the linkbloggy style. It shows you care and it saves me the time of clicking on links without knowing the significance of what I am clicking on.
I am a huge fan of the hat-tip and feel quite dirty if I don’t hat tip.
Is think post on MNSpeak. I wouldn’t know since I haven’t really read that site for a week now. Don’t make me look!
Is think post on MNSpeak.
Yup, an item on MNspeak that they poached from Metroblogging. In this particular case. They poach from other places, too.
I think MNspeak has an interesting branding problem where nobody really wants to go there but goes there because it happens to be the place where a few things happen that don’t happen anywhere else.
“is think”. I’m stupid and thinking faster than I type. I meant, is THIS posted on MNSpeak. As in this specific post.
Did somebody say branding? That’s what I do for a living! Yeah, I don’t even know what to say more about MNSpeak that hasn’t been covered here.
I was talking with another MNSpeaker about how the site has just gotten lame and filled with people who can’t take a joke/can’t handle discourse.
I highly doubt it. I did drop a one-liner protest in the comments of the stolen post, though.
people who can’t take a joke/can’t handle discourse
For example.
Or here: http://www.mnspeak.com/mnspeak/archive/post-3674.cfm
No one addressed my points except Teucer.
I’ve found that the sure sign you’ve made a valid point on MNSpeak is when no one addresses it.
Sad.
Anyway, please don’t switch to the link listing. You aren’t planning on it, right?
Anyway, please don’t switch to the link listing. You aren’t planning on it, right?
I’m not planning on it and I certainly don’t think any of the other current authors are (or we’d be doing it already).
I’ll do the occasional link dump for stuff that I wish I had more time to spend on but still want to pass along, but that’s it. If anything, I’d like to see us do some more in-depth stuff.
Why don’t you sue them?
Oh, because you’re poor.
Wait, what? I hope I’m just missing the snark, Matt9k. Otherwise, that was the dumbest contribution to the internet, ever.
I also get tired of how threads that are inherently lighthearted and fun get hijacked by people who are just dying for an interwebz fight…
All right, when I see links I have posted first on MnSpeak pop up on Metroblogging or Mediation, can I assume they have been poached from MnSpeak?
And, seriously, did you guys lose my email?
Listen, I try to credit wherever I find links, but, in almost every instance, I have found them myself. I am guessing we pretty much subscribe the exactly the same rss feeds.
There have, however, been instances in the past when I have added in a “via” only to see it disappear later, by someone else. I will ask Matt about that. But it hasn’t happened in quite a while.
Jesus.
Fight!
that was the dumbest contribution to the internet, ever.
And that’s really saying a lot.
All right, when I see links I have posted first on MnSpeak pop up on Metroblogging or Mediation, can I assume they have been poached from MnSpeak?
If I got it from MNspeak, I say I got it at MNspeak. Period.
I’m sure the majority of our feedreader contents are pretty much the same, but that Greenway thing is seriously questionable.
There have, however, been instances in the past when I have added in a “via” only to see it disappear later, by someone else.
And that is why I didn’t bother to email you first, Max. Besides, regardless of where you get your stuff from, your posting is the best part about MNspeak right now. The riff-raff in the comments that can go to hell.
“Fight!”
Just keep the hairpulling to a minimum…haha, kidding…
And because I am not sure that when I put things in via, Erica, I do not post anything that I have not found myself. I regularly link directly to Mediation. We do have similar posts quite frequently, but I assume it is because Taylor and I have very similar tastes and go to the same sources.
As to this post, I had heard somebody talking about a bicyclist getting assaulted on the Greenway. When I did a Google search for it this morning, the Midway Greenway association was literally the second link that popped up (neither MnSpeak nor Metroblogging’s posts were on Google at that moment; they are now).
I will talk to Matt about making sure I am allowed to use via, because, honestly, it would make my job a lot easier. But I put four or five hours into my posts every single day, and I feel like the huge amount of work I do, for very little money, including moderating the forums, is unfairly minimized when it is suggested that I find my links by poaching them from Taylor’s blog and Metroblogging.
I can’t find the link, but I recall recently posting a story, and then finding the same story on Metroblogging and linking to the discussion here in the comments.
whaaa???? people actually get paid to do this???
money can be made by setting sail and dropping waypoints on teh vast intertubes?
whaaa???? people actually get paid to do this???
money can be made by setting sail and dropping waypoints on teh vast intertubes?
whaaa???? people actually get paid to do this???
money can be made by setting sail and dropping waypoints on teh vast intertubes?
Not much.
Rake Forums?
If it helps, I’m a Metblog author who rarely if ever reads MNSpeak (no offense; it’s just not on my radar). So if I write about anything here that’s been previously covered over there, it’s coincidental. I’m sure the same could be said over on other sites. It’s a small town with less news than you’d think, after all.
MnSpeak is on pretty shaky footing these days. . .
Max appears to be putting in about 14-hour days, working on the site, with very lackluster results. I don’t expect the status quo to continue much longer. So stay tuned.
To be fair: I’ve been reading MsSpeak pretty closely for many months, and have not detected Max appearing to be less than very willing to acknowledge whatever sources where he’s found stories he’s posting about. In other words, I think that’s a “red herring”.
However, the bigger issue at MnSpeak has been Max’s recent pattern of secretive, idiosynchratic, censorship. Lots of comments have mysteriously disappeared in recent weeks, and only Max, plus maybe Matt Bartel and Tom Bartel, know what that’s about.
Here’s a tip, if you want to test things out: Submit a comment, without being registered at MnSpeak, that’s at all critical of MnSpeak in general, or of Max’s leadership of MnSpeak, or of the Bartels’ responsibility as owners of MnSpeak. Chances are that the comment will quickly get deleted, and then Max will chime in with a high-handed comment about the importance of keeping the site free of comments from “trolls”. (While posts from obvious trolls such as Maz and Raindogg continue to be tolerated.)
A good case in point occurred last week, when there was an interesting discussion of the controversial local OrangeBottlesSilverCans fictional blog. The discussion resulted in the not-so-difficult exposing of the blog’s author’s likely true identity, and that in real life she’s got a reputation to look after, in that she’s trying to establish herself as a new lawyer. And then, as was to be expected, she quickly took down the blog, once her anonymity had come to an end. For reasons known only to himself, at a certain point Max started deleting all further commenting about the matter, except, inexplicably, commenting from the scurrilous pornstars’-PR guy who has taken over the blog’s URL.
Max and the Bartels briefly seemed open to MnSpeak-participants’ feedback a few months ago; a lot of good suggestions were made. But Max and the Bartels paid those ideas only lip-service; no changes were implemented.
Max has had a field day making fun of his former boss, Ed. F., the publisher of The Pulse. These days, Max is deservedly open to equally harsh ridicule.
“Reluctant”, I think you’ve seriously mischaracterized Max’s actions, and the events that led to Max’s actions, and maybe your own role in those events causing Max’s actions, to the point where people here should maybe be aware that someone who has put substantial effort into disrupting other sites and seriously worrying other people is now visiting them.
But, having said that, I will admit that for someone who exhibits some seriously scary signs of a compulsive form of mental illness, you write very pretty.
Another case in point: Just now, at MnSpeak I seconded Erica’s remark there that Max’s ability to respond freely is probably severely limited by his bosses, the Bartels. In doing so, all I said was that I take that as a given. Max deleted that comment right away.
Before Max recently became part of the local media “establishment”, he of course would’ve chafed at, and howled about, such censorship.
Hey “Random Belligerence”: It’s obvious who you are, Max. ‘Nuff said.
For those interested, the info about the decline and fall of the OrangeBottles blog appeared in MnSpeak threads dating from Aug. 13 and Aug. 21. Once Max began censoring most further discussion of the matter at MnSpeak, some additional info wound up having to be posted instead at CraigsList rants n raves, around Aug. 22/23/24 . . . until someone, perhaps Max, began flagging down that stuff as soon as it would appear there.
Obviously, I prefer free, unfettered, access to information. Usually, those who stand in the way of that, like Max in this case, wind up embarassing themselves.
Reluctant: First, ironic name choice. Second, cool trick – the unrebuttable “oh, he must be Max” that survives only because you’re one dude I’d just as soon thinks my name is Peggy or Juan. No, sorry, not Max. He can speak for himself. But you’re just scary, and tonight I thought the role of the guy walking in front of the lepers yelling “lepers coming!” was appropriate. Third, the deletions had to do with this really creepy scary guy stalking some female commenters and outing them repeatedly. Funny, his syntactical patterns were much the same as yours. Must be a regional thing.
Belligerence: I have re-read your latest comment a couple of times, and find it mostly too incoherent to bother with.
If anybody is actually stalking and menancing people, well of course I’m against that. I’m not aware of that going on. It has looked, suspiciously, like Max has been citing that as his rationalization for censoring whatever comments displease him.
This is getting awesome!
(I seriously think everyone who has commented so far has over-stated their point to some degree or another. Keep it coming!)
It’s the troll, and, yes, he has stalked and threatened people on the site, as well as relentlessly bullied me. If his IP address has been logged on this site, I would love to know it, although, since I am sure he is the same lunatic who has been threatening local bloggers through the comments section of their blog, he has certainly been using a proxy server.
I have been deleting comments on MnSpeak, all by this guy, all consisting of a few basic themes: A few posters on MnSpeak piss him off, so he will complain endlessly about them. When that doesn’t work, he bullies me and mocks the Bartels. Finally, when that doesn’t work, he posts the names and places of work of the people he doesn’t like, and insinuates he’s going to turn them in to their bosses. I suspect he is so interested in the OrangeBottles blog because he successfully bullied a local bogger, and so desperately wishes to gloat about it that he’ll do anything to get the conversation going (he’s tried, unsuccessfully, to start it three times on Craigslist.)
Of course, he’ll deny it, and waah waah waah about censorship. And that’s the last I will say about it, except that now that he’s here, you’re going to have a hell of a time getting rid of him.
Rex, I don’t think I’ve been overstating things; if anything, I think I’ve understated them.
Your former baby, MnSpeak, is going through serious growing pains, and I don’t think you would approve of much about how those are getting handled.
It looks to me like The Bartels and Max can’t make up their minds about what they want MnSpeak to be. They’re staying stuck keeping all options open, and so the site continues to do nothing particularly well.
It is especially telling that the site continues to have no “About MnSpeak” page, to clarify the site’s focus, and to make clear the ground rules for postings and comments. (Current ground rules appear to go like this: whatever Max feels like at the moment, depending on what sort of mood he’s in. For a site that, presumably, wishes to be taken seriously, and wishes to boost its readership and advertising revenue, that’s surprisingly amateurish.)
Max would like everyone to believe that MnSpeak currently has just one critic, whom he loves to refer to as “the troll”. In fact, currently there are multiple critics (all acting independently, as far as I can tell). But Max is unwilling to accept that, because insisting that it’s just about a single person makes it easy for him to justify removing any critical comments that he doesn’t want anyone else to see.
I don’t see anything very troll-like in my comments here.
The OrangeBottles blog story was very worthy of attention and discussion at MnSpeak, on multiple levels. But Max stifled further conversation about it. A few years ago, for City Pages, Rex wrote the post-mortem article about the exposed-as-a-hoax Plain Layne blog. The OrangeBottles story might well deserve similar treatment. My hunch is that Max feels uncomfortable about the whole thing, because the key revelations came out within a couple of MnSpeak threads. . . . and Max’s #1 allegiance seems to be about catering to the sensitivities of bloggers (most MnSpeak regulars being bloggers), rather than fostering, journalistically, the free flow of accurate information.
Really, it’s just a website, dude. If you’re so reluctant to read it, just stop…
Also, what is the fascination with outing anonymous blog authors? Can’t you just enjoy reading a blog without having to know every little detail about them? It’s just a website, fer chrissakes!
Get a damn life…
Well this is a whole new level of crazy.
Before Max recently became part of the local media “establishment”, he of course would’ve chafed at, and howled about, such censorship.
—-for serious…media establishment?
Ask 100 people on the street if they read mnspeak….I bet you get 100 huhs???
I love watching this stuff though…bloggers are funny eh.
We should rename MnSpeak “100 Huhs.”
I keep pissing and moaning on and about MNSpeak because I have a grand vision for it. There is no room for anyone else’s opinion but mine, which sucks for me since I can’t seem to find a constructive way to express myself in a manner that would give people reason to give a rat’s ass about what I think. Deletion of my senseless and harassing comments, which usually consist of such mature gems as making fun of someone’s physical appearance, threatening to report them to their employers for posting during work hours, or posting as much personal information as I can find about them, is obviously censorship. To wit, I have nothing better to do.
Actually I’ve heard people at happy hour talking about MNSpeak before. I almost spoke up and was like “Hey I’m that annoying wayne guy on there!” but thought better of it.
“Actually I’ve heard people at happy hour talking about MNSpeak before.”
—-not an applebees, I’m guessing?
Don’t get me wrong, there is a subset of cyber hipsters…you know em the “too cool for school” ones that spent way too much time picking out which “actual vintage tees” go with thier uber hip skinny jeans and their macbook pros; might converse about art, which band sold out, revolution or on occasion MNspeak…but a mainstream media outlet that does not make.
Just so we’re clear, which Erica clearly isn’t, Matt runs mnspeak. It has no formal or other connection with The Rake. The Rake has its own editors, which wouldn’t tolerate 98 percent of what goes on mnspeak. So, I’d appreciate your acknowledging that the Rake has nothing to do with mnspeak and that snidely calling it the Rake forums, then crossing it out, is a damn lie. I don’t read mnspeak much at all. I don’t comment on it any more.
And, as for tarring The Rake with the accusation of stealing anyone’s intellectual property, that’s a lie and it’s libelous. As long as you are on your high moral horse Erica, you should retract it.
Ryan, who are you talking about? The “cyber hipster” thing (despite being an awful term) may have been a reasonable tag in the very early Rex days when the only people who posted were his friends, but the site has grown since then. Now you’ve got ALAMN Bob, Bobby B, Maz, De Rusha, Wayne, Josie, Ranty, Kevin, David Foureyes… people with a lot of different lifestyles and political perspectives.
ow on earth does anyone get the idea that people who spend all their time online could possibly be “too cool for school”? We’re all nerds and geeks.
But I agree that MnSpeak is hardly a mainstream outlet.
Also, Wayne, “the annoying guy from MnSpeak” is not nearly specific enough. They could think you were just about anyone.
those sure are a lot of first names there…while were throwing em out; I prefer: Jake, Lefty, Mary J., Pete and of course Sharkey to name a few.
I am truly sorry for the cyber hipster term; it is weak, let me boil it down.
Cyber Hipster=
+ anyone that thinks thier “Pabst” vintage T is okay cause its “Real”
+anyone that drives a prius
+anyone that uses a Mac and puts the sticker on thier bike/prius
+anyone that rides a “fixie”
+anyone that takes the bus and listens to an ipod
+anyone that drinks in Nordeast
+anyone that refers to bloggers by their first name
+anyone that thinks that starbucks is ruining the world
+anyone that constantly baits or trolls for comments on a blog like Metroblogging or MNspeak
-
damn it! I have become one….crap.
whoops forgot one:
+anyone that can’t spell their
Just so we’re clear, which Erica clearly isn’t, Matt runs mnspeak.
No, I knew that. I don’t know what I said that indicates otherwise.
It has no formal or other connection with The Rake.
Matt’s your son, you own The Rake, you participated in financing the MNspeak purchase, and I’m pretty sure Matt spends time around your offices, having seen MNspeak comments to that effect. So to say there’s no connection is false.
Part of my point here is that Max ain’t the only one with an editorial role at MNspeak. So thank you, Tom, for clarifying that it’s Matt I should be concerned about and not you.
And, as for tarring The Rake with the accusation of stealing anyone’s intellectual property, that’s a lie and it’s libelous. As long as you are on your high moral horse Erica, you should retract it.
I did no such thing.
But good for you for covering your own ass.
*chomps on more popcorn*
So Erica, what’s this then?
“Rake forums MNspeak”
And yes, Matt works at The Rake. That doesn’t mean The Rake has anything to do with mnspeak. Should we infer that your employer has something to do with Metroblogging?
And, a simple phone call or email by you or any of your commenters could have confirmed whether I or anyone else at The Rake participates in any way in mnspeak editorial decisions. We leave it to Max– too much perhaps.
A couple more things: The Rake creates original content. We don’t link to original content and then get all upset if someone else also links to someone else’s original work.
Finally, Max’s claim that he’s been told by me or Matt not to use “via” is complete bullshit. If you want to paw through many of Matt’s posts, you’ll see he used it several times.
[Obviously the "pissing and moaning" comment above wasn't really from me. Probably Wayne's doing.]
I too couldn’t understand Erica’s referring to “Rake Forums”. I side with Tom Bartel on that. A quick check at The Rake’s website shows no prominent linking to MnSpeak; the only links to MnSpeak I could find there were in the personally selected external links of the Rake’s bloggers.
(I noticed last week that Aaron was using “Rake Forums” instead of MnSpeak; perhaps Erica picked it up from him.)
I have missed Tom Bartel’s participation at MnSpeak in recent months; it was always good for plenty of entertainment. Especially when there’d be criticism of MnSpeak, Matt Bartel, or Tom himself. Tom seriously needs to have a PR handler intervening in such situations, to prevent him from reacting in such petty and foolish ways.
That’s quite a ringing endorsement of MnSpeak, from Tom. That 98% of MnSpeak’s content is below the quality threshold for the The Rake, and that Tom barely reads MnSpeak anymore, and that he never comments there anymore. After Tom used to be a regular reader and commenter. Hmmm…But it’s ME who’s supposedly a crackpot, for criticizing MnSpeak’s current shortcomings?
If MnSpeak is stinking up the joint these days, that’s because of how it’s being run. Tom says he’s not directly involved, so that means it’s about Matt and Max. If they don’t care to address the situation much more sensibly, MnSpeak will continue to deserve this alternate name: MnStink.
Several months ago constructive criticism from MnSpeak readers prompted Max and Matt to open up a thread for a day or two in which suggestions for improving MnSpeak were discussed. Readers contributed lots of good ideas, and the overall tone of the discussion was very cooperative. But since then, it’s been like that thread never happened, because Matt and Max have shown no interest in implementing any of the suggested changes. So, things have just remained stuck, and, naturally, MnSpeak readers who contibuted their time and ideas to that thread can’t help but feel jaded and resentful.
The real strength of a site like MnSpeak is the commenting from the reading public. The daily links are of value, but the commenting is what makes or breaks the site. So it makes no sense for MnSpeak to be run in a way that alienates longtime commenters and would-be new commenters.
With regard to this…
And yes, Matt works at The Rake. That doesn’t mean The Rake has anything to do with mnspeak. Should we infer that your employer has something to do with Metroblogging?
… and that Rake forums/MNspeak thing:
You’re saying there’s no current legal connection. And I’m saying there’s a definite perception of a connection by myself and probably a bunch of other folks at all familiar with MNspeak and/or the local media.
And, a simple phone call or email by you or any of your commenters could have confirmed whether I or anyone else at The Rake participates in any way in mnspeak editorial decisions. We leave it to Max– too much perhaps.
We? I thought you said you had nothing to do with MNspeak?
The Rake creates original content. We don’t link to original content and then get all upset if someone else also links to someone else’s original work.
I’m not saying The Rake did that. I’m saying MNspeak did that. Which Max has said, in the specific case I cited, that he didn’t do. And I believe him, in that specific case.
Finally, Max’s claim that he’s been told by me or Matt not to use “via” is complete bullshit. If you want to paw through many of Matt’s posts, you’ll see he used it several times.
Max didn’t say that you, Tom, had anything to do with it. He said, There have, however, been instances in the past when I have added in a “via” only to see it disappear later, by someone else. I will ask Matt about that.
For someone who was really trying to distance himself and his publication from MNspeak earlier, you sure seem awfully connected to it now.
But it’s ME who’s supposedly a crackpot, for criticizing MnSpeak’s current shortcomings?
You’re a crackpot because you’re a psychotic stalker. Of course Max is going to delete posts that are moderately abusive or using threatening language including users’ places of employment. Then when you frame it as constructive criticism of the site?
A couple more things: The Rake creates original content. We don’t link to original content and then get all upset if someone else also links to someone else’s original work.
Goddamn. I think I’m actually with Tommy on this one.
But, why are you getting all Kate Parrydantic about separation of powers? It’s a little ludicrous. You don’t find Rupert Murdoch on messageboards mapping out his flowchart of power, do you, Teebs? So what if the plebes are bitching about The Scion. Keep it all at arm’s length, baby. We all know the golden rule: don’t shit where you eat. We’re not stupid. Don’t dignify Erica Chomsky by posting.
And poor Hedy. Female lawyers really do have it rough with these creeps. It must be the source of great anguish.
I’ve always wondered where great anguish came from. Thanks.
Aaron, if there’s a pyschotic stalker out there, it ain’t me.
I’ve been referring to the removal of comments that have called into question how MnSpeak is being run.
“[Obviously the 'pissing and moaning' comment above wasn't really from me. Probably Wayne's doing.]”
Nooooo, really? Like someone said over at MNSpeak, Wayne and the other direct targets of my self-aggrandizing, bullying, and downright abusive comments are not the only one sick of my crap. In other words, Wayne’s not here, man.
The beautiful tragedy of truly crazy people is that they lack the self awareness that allows most of us to realize when we are being completely unreasonable. Good luck trying to convince Don Quicrazy otherwise.
I agree with Erica that Tom undermines his claim of separation and distance when he rushes to MnSpeak’s defense here.
Based on what Tom likes to claim about who’s in charge of what, it should be Matt, not Tom, to pop in here and respond to what’s been said about MnSpeak.
This is the same pattern seen from Tom over at MnSpeak last year and early this year; Tom would step forward to address criticisms, as though either he regards Matt as incapable of handling that, or else that Matt is really just a puppet-like figurehead, with Tom being the one actually in charge.
There are two people posting as “Reluctant MNspeak Reader.” Maybe even three.
Just so you know, in case anyone couldn’t tell.
Reading this comments section just made my head hurt. Whoever mentioned the comments making/breaking the site (sorry, I’m in a rush and don’t feel like finding the comment) is absolutely right. My complaint is with the shift in the commenting on MNSpeak now with the editorial side, although, depending on which side/issue/whatever you are on, I’m such everyone has some valid points…which I’m sure someone can sort out and provide a concise summary of…and then I can care again.
Bixby, I’m not sure I understand your closing point. But if you meant that you’d prefer to see opposing sides in political discussions summarize their key points. . . I’m not sure that’s worth bothering with. . . because MnSpeak’s political discussions are typically so lame, so polarized, and so off-topic.
MnSpeak is supposed to be about Minnesota-focused topics; but most MnSpeak political debates wind up with little or no local angle — just tiresome rehashing of national political positions.
MnSpeak’s moderator could help on that, by nudging the commenters to stick to Minnesota-focused material. He wouldn’t have to do that all the time; it could be done just on a spot-checking basis, to set the appropriate example, which MnSpeak regulars could then follow, and police themselves about. But so far Max has shown no willingness to do that.
It’s for these reasons that I usually skip over pretty much all of MnSpeak’s overtly political content.
which MnSpeak regulars could then follow
That might be asking a lot.
Erica, sure, I understand your skepticism. But really, there’s nothing to lose, in trying that approach. Things can only get better.
It’s not reasonable to expect a small-audience site like MnSpeak to be able to justify the expense of a contstantly on-duty moderator/facilitator. Turning over that role to the participants would entail no financial cost, and could easily bring out better conduct among the participants.
The computer forum at CraigsList is an example of an unmoderated discussion board that’s self-policing and highly successful. Most participants there happily go along with the generally accepted ground rules, because they can see how much better the board functions that way.
“The computer forum at CraigsList is an example of an unmoderated discussion board that’s self-policing and highly successful. Most participants there happily go along with the generally accepted ground rules, because they can see how much better the board functions that way.”
I’m sorry, but that’s the funniest thing I’ve ever read…
Aliecat, I’m not referring to rants n raves at CraigsList; I’m referring to the computer forum.
People posing questions there come away with good answers pretty quickly. I find I can get most of my computer-techie questions answered there just by searching through past discussions. Sure, some trolly types hang out there, but they get effectively neutralized pretty readily by the regulars.
(But that site has these advantages over MnSpeak: a system for flagging/removing problem comments, a narrower subject-matter scope, and a more homogenous particpant base.)
I see…so every forum website should only have a homogeneous participant base? Okaaayyy…whatever floats your boat, I guess…
I didn’t phrase that very well.
I didn’t mean that having less diversity among the participants is more desirable; I just meant that that makes it easier to get everybody to agree on how to be operating within the group.
Best. Blog post. Ever.
Especially the comments.
I hate to be that guy, but http://www.losanjealous.com/ mops the floor with the both of you. Notice how they’re too busy being awesome to pick on or gripe about lesser, lamer websites like http://www.laist.com/ ? The best way to keep other sites from duping your stories is to not report the same old crap that everybody else is.
Quite a bit of the material in the comments here probably more appropriately belonged over at MnSpeak. . . . . . That it wound up here rather than there reflects poorly on the current state of things at MnSpeak.
This thread developed otherwise, but something Metroblogging-Mpls. usually has going for it is this: staying pretty positive and constructive, in contrast to how MnSpeak tends to get.
I hate to be that guy
Oh, go ahead. You’ve got a point there, but I would say…
1. If you think there’s room for improvement, how about if you join up and contribute?
2. Los Angeles is a different (and waaay bigger) market. Metroblogging LA kicks both of our asses.
It’s all just ones and zeros, man.
As an example of what to not let any discussion forum become, take a look at the commenting today at MnSpeak. 500+ comments in the past 24 hours. And nearly all of it is total garbage, spewed forth by the same dozen-or-so regulars. Mostly pointless arguing from polarized political extremes. And what does the moderator, Max, do about it? He eagerly joins in on that.
Yesterday, when that sort of thing started to happen, someone spoke up about steering the discussion back to the thread’s original, locally-focused, topic. For a while afterward, things got better (with no help from Max); when they got out-of-hand again and the person spoke up again about that, Max deleted that person’s comment.
Today Aaron commented that he’s disgusted enough to be about ready to remove MnSpeak as one of his RSS feeds.
MnSpeak has sunk down to being only a half-step superior to CraigsList rants-n-raves.
Max continues to show himself to be an inconsistent, surly, and very ineffective moderator.
As an example of what to not let any discussion forum become, take a look at the commenting today at MnSpeak. 500+ comments in the past 24 hours. And nearly all of it is total garbage, spewed forth by the same dozen-or-so regulars. Mostly pointless arguing from polarized political extremes. And what does the moderator, Max, do about it? He eagerly joins in on that.
Yesterday, when that sort of thing started to happen, someone spoke up about steering the discussion back to the thread’s original, locally-focused, topic. For a while afterward, things got better (with no help from Max); when they got out-of-hand again and the person spoke up again about that, Max deleted that person’s comment.
Today Aaron commented that he’s disgusted enough to be about ready to remove MnSpeak as one of his RSS feeds.
MnSpeak has sunk down to being only a half-step superior to CraigsList rants-n-raves.
Max continues to show himself to be an inconsistent, surly, and very ineffective moderator.
(Sorry for the duplicate commenting. I couldn’t tell that the first one had gone through successfully, because my computer screen locked up after I clicked on “Post”. Erica, feel free to delete the duplicate comment plus this one.)
Today at MnSpeak the fruitless political arguing again got way out of control.
So then a regular, MunsingW, very reasonably asked that commenters there stick to the standard of not engaging in the same old polarized debating. And also, staying on-topic: meaning, focusing on truly local aspects. (It’s MNspeak, not USAspeak, after all).
Next, another commenter copied and pasted the commenting guidelines from the Minnesota Monitor website, which are very good, and very much in keeping with MunsingW’s sensible suggestions.
Immediately afterward, one of the regular conservative trolls at MnSpeak howled in protest, about such standards. (Of course! Under such standards, most of his usual sorts of commenting would be subject to immediate deletion.)
A short time later, moderator Max deleted those copied-and-pasted suggested guidelines for commenting.
That’s MnSpeak for ya’!
Hmmmmm….
I’m weaning myself from the comments there.
Today at Mnspeak, Vlad, a regular there, asked other Mnspeakers to fill him in on what became of the OrangeBottles blog (which has been referred to here in this Metroblogger thread).
When anybody tried to post info about that, moderator Max did his best to block that.
But here’s info that did manage to remain posted briefly, until Max deleted it:
-
As the OrangeBottles blog gained momentum, new readers were naively accepting that it was non-fiction, and would rave about it. Which prompted more-aware observers to chime in dismissively, pointing out that the whole thing was fictional.
Once the word was getting out that it was fictional, then naturally people were getting curious about who was behind the stunt. (As in the much more famous Plain Layne hoax, from a few years ago, which Mnspeak founder Rex wrote about in detail, for City Pages.) Their eagerness to unmask the blogger was increased by the obvious delight the blogger was taking in fooling many readers.
Discussions about the blogger’s identity occurred on various message boards, including MnSpeak.
It didn’t take long for the pieces to be put together on the blogger’s identity. Because many of her friends and fans, in lauding her, would mention both her earlier, non-fictional, blog’s name (Hookers-something-stilts) and the new (OrangeBottles-something) name, and also in some cases mentioning her real name.
As was to be expected, as soon as she could no longer remain anonymous, the blogger abruptly took down the blog’s contents. And gave up her blogging URL at Blogspot. (Then a sleazy PR-guy in the porn industry immediately snapped up that abandoned URL, as a way to steer traffic to his sites.)
I’m a casual mnspeak reader (never participate) and I followed a comment’s suggestion to head over and read this thread. I made it through all the comments and then went back over to mnspeak only to find the original post that referenced this specific thread was deleted. It gives a lot of credibility to what people here are saying about mnspeak’s censorship. I’m surprised and disappointed because I didn’t want to believe that was the case. What a let down.
The OrangeBottles blogger hasn’t taken down the blog’s companion MySpace page, but she’s changed the screen name, from Tina Ballerina to Sassy Lopez.