MNspeak, in a nutshell.
MNspeak is a funny place.
Nobody’s quite sure what to call it, exactly. Is it a blog? Is it a forum? Anyone can post, but it’s moderated. I think of it as a community blog with some extra features.
It has a regular group of commenters. Anyone can post an entry, but I think most people pretty much just wait for new posts to go up in the morning so they can start leaving comments and having a conversation, forum-style. The thing about this is the conversation frequently devolves into the same sorts of arguments over and over.
It’s a snarky crowd over there at MNspeak, and it can be a pretty hostile environment for the weak. The best way to deal is to give as good as you get, and also to not give a shit either way. I think it’s a pretty big turnoff to someone who casually happens across MNspeak these days. But if you’ve got the balls to hang in there, you might enjoy it.
For those that might need a little help, Bixby posted a list of MNspeakers likely arguments. This comment was posted on a thread about Minnesotan driving, but it’s applicable to pretty much any subject you could possibly come up with. If you’re new to MNspeak, this is what you should expect. Just so you know.
1. liberals (who don’t want people to be able to carry guns so that people can be scared into being courteous).
2. conservatives (who believe courteous driving is only for the rich).
3. we need to alternative fuels because the higher price of gas makes people angry.
4. People are angry about something related to condominiums (which they are often driving to and from because they cannot walk places in our unwalkable city).
5. Racism (obvs!)
6. It’s really the rude driving down by Block E that’s bringing everyone else down.
7. People are rude because they are rushing to get to a bar where they can smoke before it closes (entirely too early – this never happens in [city bigger than MSP].
8. They hate the new City Pages Editor and are so mad about something he did that they can’t focus on being nice.
9. Illegal immigrants who don’t understand what it means to be a courteous driver.
10. Racism (again, obvs!)
11. A complete lack of understanding of the basic principals of economics.
12. Elitism
13. “People like [insert MNSpeaker]“
14. The 5.
15. Rybak
16. Timmy P.
17. People angry about the horrible journalism they just read in the Strib over breakfast before getting into their car (negligible since no one actually reads it over breakfast)
18. Public schools used to teach courteous driving but they don’t any more. Send your kid to private school [leads directly to argument #2]
19. It is better to be a courteous driver near your home than it is to drive across town to be courteous. Yet, people would still rather drive to other states to be courteous [leads to argument #20]
20. There aren’t any reasonably priced places to be a courteous driver anymore.
21.-infinity: any combination of 1-20.
22. [insert unrelated sexual innuendo]
Right on, Bixby!
Oh don’t get me started.
The other day I had bets placed with other bloggers as to how many comments it’d take before a certain troll word would appear. So I created a Climate Porn thread got 100+ comments, almost all are trolling worthlessness. It was awesome. Then I created a Don’t Buy Gas Today thread and was disappointed it only got 30 comments.
Mazasapa, aka Dennis Tester, is seriously a trolling champ, and he gets people riled up in almost every single thread and they simply do not ignore him. He’s outdone “bud jr” for chief annoyance.
Oh, and is MNspeak a blog? It think it is a forum about the local media. Maybe it’s a blog, but it’s more of a forum than a blog.
Bixby missed an important one: “It was better when Rex was here.” (or Steve Marsh or Matt or Alexis or whomever) Heh. And it’s always true!
When Rex ran it, it was more of a blog on up-and-coming local arts, entertainment, music, culture, dining, and internet stuffs. Usually a day ahead of the news cycle, and linked to a lot of local blogs. Now MNspeak links to stuff from that day’s or previous day’s news cycle, generally linking to major media sources.
I think it’s a blog in form, but people use it like a forum.
Oh, and I completely reached into the Fuck It Bucket on maz just the other day when he told some story about a guy getting fired claiming it had to do with the guy’s race, and then when I asked him what exactly it had to do with race (because he didn’t mention that part in the story) he said he just threw it in because he thought I’d have a little more empathy.
Love it. LOVE IT.
I agree Erica. And I used to go there and often find really interesting story ideas. Now I just see which issues get people riled up. I miss all the links to blogs, but I think that’s happened because of the breakdown of the most powerful part of MNSpeak: it’s RSS-driven Aggregator.
I agree Erica. And I used to go there and often find really interesting story ideas. Now I just see which issues get people riled up. I miss all the links to blogs, but I think that’s happened because of the breakdown of the most powerful part of MNSpeak: it’s RSS-driven Aggregator.
And now I’m becoming ALAMN Bob by double commenting.
Aaron, I think you’re exactly right in the comparison between Rex and the new MNSpeak. On Aprils Fools Day, I actually thought it would be you as the new editor and I had hope for the site again. The constant political and newsfilter links are very annoying and I missed the local blog/culture aspect of it.
Granted, since posts can be created by anyone, we could fill that need for this ourselves, but it was a lot easier when Rex did it for us.
Granted, since posts can be created by anyone, we could fill that need for this ourselves
I’ve thought about that numerous times, but I feel like if I have something I want to say that badly, I’ll put it up here instead.
On Aprils Fools Day, I actually thought it would be you as the new editor and I had hope for the site again.
Brian- I appreciate it. It was a ton of fun being Editor of MNspeak for two days. I really dug it, and I felt like I could do better.
because of the breakdown of the most powerful part of MNSpeak: it’s RSS-driven Aggregator.
Jason- Bingo. Remember when the Aggregator was a big button in the sidebar? Those were the days! Then it turned into a little text link. Now it got outsourced to Bloglines. The Bartel Cartel didn’t seem to get it.
All- The aggregation of local blogs was the heart of MNspeak. I felt that that the 10 most recent things in the aggregator should have automatically updated in the sidebar. It could have seriously been the center of the Minneapolis internet.
Wait, is this post from 8 months ago? [checks link date] Oh, nope, it’s from today.
What’s frustrating is that every time people bring the aggregator issue up to Matt, he mumbles something about technical difficulties and that’s all you ever hear. Fuckin’ hire somebody to fix it. Oh, wait, Matt’s in China this month. Or Europe. Or whatever.
I guess I would expect a family of publishers to lean towards focus on the media. Which is fine, but it ain’t what it used to be and it ain’t what I’m interested in.
Wow this has the potential of turning into a MNspeak thread.
Blasphemy!
Metroblogging Minneapolis was better when Max was here.
If it does, I want to be the ‘racism’ guy. Or ‘doesn’t understand economics’ guy.
Aaron, I’m going to let that slide, only because I like Max.
I’m going to be the “homeowners are better than renters” guy.
Erica – If this is a MNspeak thread, you better be ready to let a lot more than that slide!
I’ve struggled with what to call MNSpeak when describing it (and it comes up surprisingly often in random conversations with non-Minnesotans). I believe it is currently being referred to as “a blog-forum-type-thing”.
MNSpeak reminds me of the Williams Students Online discussion board (but with less people who live with their parents). It is gets just a ridiculous and we have our own Maz Jr(s). Just check out how ridiculous this thread got. It started out talking about evil Coke products and somehow ended up with a bunch of Indian (dots not feathers) kids arguing about just how rich the rich kids at their Indian high schools are. Or something. I don’t even know.
Anyway, I started submitting fun questions as MNSpeak posts because, while it going to degenerate into a political circle-jerk, at least for a little bit of time people can participate in the thread without feeling like they need to be an expert in something(besides their own life). MNSpeak seems like a virtual high school cafeteria and it can be intimidating to sit down at a table if it’s something heavy like crime or racism. So, I wish there were more quirky posts to welcome more people into the fold.
The thing I find most frustrating about the site is how condescending people on that site can be. When I first started reading it, I was very hesitant to chime in on a thread because of how mean-spirited people seem at times. I’m a pretty snarky person, so it is probably pretty bad if I feel this way.
I’m glad that you liked my list. I wrote it during a study break this morning at some ridiculous hour. I figured it was high time I posted a good list somewhere since I hadn’t really been about list writing since I stopped posting to my other blog Random Lists of Things (and, since someone might poke around and ask, the popped collar blog is my doing as well…)
I didn’t write about Rex because I think I started reading MNSpeak at the very end of the Rex era, so I didn’t really know what it was like with Rex at the helm but judging from your comments, it seems as though it was a good time for all.
I wish I’d never found this blog since I have 50 pages of writing due by Friday. Then again, I have no will power, so I’m sure I will poke around.
You’re a racist!
I know this comment might get pulled like it was linking to a meth recipe, but you can’t forget this other inside joke: Say when is the first evar Metroblogging get together? Nye’s at 6?
I’m only going if I can ride my bike there.
Can I be the one who has to make everything into a lewd joke?
Or can I be the one who makes a joke and pretty much says the equivalent of “that’s what’s called a callback!”?
Either will do.
OKAY WAYNE!!!
Why is dere nothin about Sailor Martin on that list.
Oh yeah, and I hate everyone and everything. Everything was better at some other time and place that is not this one.
I wish I could get WCCO to create an aggregator similar to the old MNSpeak aggregator. It would be huge for us.
Oh, can I be the one who runs around calling everyone fascists for no reason?
Awesome.
If you’re not convinced with how awesome MNspeak is, right now at MNspeak regarding the state-wide smoking ban:
Minnesota is turning into like a mini-communist China. Everyone’s rights are being stripped away, thanks to the powers that be and the nanny liberals that control the DFL wing of the party; the republicans that basically voted for this measure are nothing but a bunch of Marxist turncoats that needed to be thrown out in the primary election by the general public. Yet, no true conservative with libertarian views would even dare to support a statewide smoking ban. It’s a fact.
»» Submitted by Big G at 7:17 PM on May 16
MNspeak is awesome. It’s a fact.
You can only run around calling people fascists if you promise to insist that it is necessary for you to to carry a semi-automatic at all times because you need to protect yourself from the anarchy occurring on the streets of Minneapolis.
Aaron: You’ve achieved a new level of Meta.
It is necessary. Don’t you know that crime will go down if we all pack the heat?
You can’t even rebut stuff like that, it’s so outrageous.
RACIST!
(Seriously tho, JD, it blow my mind that MSM organizations don’t have entire positions devoted to scanning the web, like papers and the AP and Reuters wires or MNSpeak and the front page of the STrib, for stories to send their professional reporters to cover. Instead the local folks are either behind the curve or pick their own stories (Dirty Jobs: Scooping Poop at the Zoo, LOL) and the national media just wait for Drudge to pick it up. Get with the program folks!)
Oh, it’s still going good over there:
Actually, Big G, there’s probably more communists at the U of MN than there are at Peking University. Seriously.
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 8:26 PM on May 16
ROFL. Dennis really knows how to keep the thread rollin’.
It takes more than a double post to become ALAMN Bob, Jason.
ALAMN Bob is everywhere. In Eagan with the Gov. Shopping at Lunds with Wayne. Poppin’ some caps with Bixby .357 in Circle Pines, drinking Bushmills Black with the Bartel Cartel at the Local.
I didn’t realize Bob was so… omnipresent. Freaky.
Oh my stars!
Bx does not equal Bixby
Binky .357 does not equal Bixby
That is all.
This comment thread is totally more interesting than MNspeak tonight – yeehaw!
It’s… getting a little too similar.
Sorry, Bix — I blame the Knob Creek bourbon I had last night to celebrate Freedom To Breathe becoming state law (no firearms or driving was involved).
My bad!
It’s… getting a little too similar.
But ironically so.
Erica-
This post was supposed to sum up MNspeak in a Nutshell, right? I think it’s working. That’s a fact.
I love this thread. That’s a fact!
I keep hoping the discussions on MNspeak will be fun and rational. Heck, I hate talking about politics, but it turns into nothing but. Mean mean mean politics with name calling in place of legit arguments. Isn’t there a place in Minnesota for some fun? Besides the MoA?
I love this thread. That’s a fact!
Longest EVAR on Metblog Mpls?
Longest EVAR on Metblog Mpls?
I believe so.
Great guys, because of you I don’t think I can ever comment on MNSpeak again without saying something insanely snarky. Good grief.
Great guys, because of you I don’t think I can ever comment on MNSpeak again without saying something insanely snarky. Good grief.
Welcome to the club.
I can’t believe what a letdown MNSpeak is. When I first heard of it, I expected something along the lines of MetaFilter or one of the other robust online communities, only centered around the Twin Cities. But it’s an unmoderated mess where every thread revolves around a handful of cranks… Total waste of potential.
On the bright side, someone did say that I should be reported to the police or the FBI because of a comic of mine that had a MNSpeak thread devoted to it. That was the moment when I decided I’d arrived as a cartoonist…
Seriously, though, I think MNspeak has become a total parody of itself. I feel sort of compelled to keep up with what goes on there, but I’m not sure I get much value out of it.
I’m not sure what the fix is. I believe there’s a certain amount of romanticizing the good ol’ days of MNSpeak. Parts of it were better in the beginning, parts of it are better now. It’s what happens when a small club becomes a bigger party.
If I were Matt, I would hire the equivalent of Rex to write posts. I would find someone who’s plugged into music, blogs, and culture… someone witty and provocative in a fun way… and pay them per post. The community should step up, but looking at all the ads on the site, someone’s making money too. I’d reinvest that into the site.
Snark aside, some of us long-time MNspeakers (who were better when Rex was here) have had our concerns lately on the direction and state of the site. We have talked off-line and on other sites about this. I still have hope that it will get back on track, or find a new path…
Rex was better when Rex was there.
I would hire the equivalent of Rex to write posts.
I nominate Aaron or Taylor.
I did go see a show at the Mixed Blood because I saw it advertised on MNspeak. Used the Rake reader 2-for-1 discount, too.
Snark aside, some of us long-time MNspeakers (who were better when Rex was here) have had our concerns lately on the direction and state of the site. We have talked off-line and on other sites about this. I still have hope that it will get back on track, or find a new path…
Some of us have talked about creating a serious, viable and improved alternative to MNspeak (I forget if you were in one of those conversations or not, Bob)… It’s one of those things that gets brought up every now and then, gets serious now and then and then falls to the wayside. Too many of us have day jobs to be devoting to a new site of that scale. We just have enough time to be commenting on all the existing sites. :-)
Some of us have talked about creating a serious, viable and improved alternative to MNspeak (I forget if you were in one of those conversations or not, Bob)… It’s one of those things that gets brought up every now and then, gets serious now and then and then falls to the wayside.
I’ve actually been kicking around the idea of trying to build a competitor. The main thing holding me back is that I’d be starting from 0, membership-wise.
Okay, so is there anyone that hasn’t thought they could do better?
I have nowhere near the technical expertise to undertake such a thing and already have a short-ish list of projects that have gone nowhere because I can’t find the time.
While I think someone could build a rival site, the expectations will be massive. How do you get the word out and not have it be known solely as the MNspeak alternative? How do you build that brand? Because as much as people are disenchanted with MNspeak, it’s doing pretty well. Decent traffic (I think Matt said something like 6000 hits a day or something) and sounds like the ad revenue is decent.
A. MNSpeak is definitely LESS snarky than it used to be. And less exclusive. But it’s more full of asshole rants for sure.
B. There are not more users than before. Different users, and more COMMENTS, but not more users. It’s the same people day after day.
C. The whole bag of differences from before & now come down to this: the previous owner had style & substance and cared about the site; the new owner, not so much. (I know neither, these are just my impressions)
I kind of wish I had paid it more attention in its earlier days, because I can’t really draw a fair comparison between then and now. But part of the reason why I didn’t was because of that air of exclusivity. Although it turns out that I’ve gotten to know some of the “before” folks and they’re all cool.
I don’t think a rival mnspeak would be that great. I think that perhaps more collaboration with whoever runs it currently with the various people who seem to have some interesting ideas (pay them a small fee maybe?) would go further since the infrastructure is already in place.
MNSpank. Heh!
collaboration with whoever runs it currently with the various people who seem to have some interesting ideas
That would require Matt Bartel to a) give a shit and b) admit he needs help. I’ve seen so many of his comments promising changes to come and seen nothing. Meh. Plus he’s working on some other big venture that’s about to launch that is supposedly gonna be huge.
Plus [Matt]’s working on some other big venture that’s about to launch that is supposedly gonna be huge.
AFAIK it’s political. I can’t see anything new from him being more worthwhile than MN Monitor or MNpublius… or maybe the 100 other local political blogs out there right now that are doing a ton of work every single day. I mean no offense to Matt, and while it’s not a fully saturated segment there sure is a lot out there already.
Best MNspeak thread ever.
(But somehow oddly not actually occurring on MNspeak.)
And to think, this thread might now have ever happened if I hadn’t been in a bad mood and hadn’t procrastinating on the internets.
I’m not even going to hand in my work, I’m going to tell my profs. I’ve done enough and I’ll just pick up my diploma on the 3rd.
Seriously though, setting aside the ground-breaking blog comment comedy, it’s really crazy that there isn’t an article in Wired or Vanity Fair or even The Rake (okay, maybe not The Rake) about the folly of MNSpeak. It’s like a fable about how a pioneering local on-line community totally disintegrated.
In fact, I’m pitching it right now; if any editors are here from Paul Schmelzer’s links, I’ll write that piece.
As someone who didn’t read it from the beginning, I would be interested in reading someone’s serious write up of the history of MNSpeak. I understand that it was better and more interesting/quirky but I’d like to hear more. So, if you’re going to make a blog post or anything, I’d be interested in seeing it.
In addition to working for BillG, I’m also a Wired Contributing Editor now! Too bad there’s about seven reasons I can’t write this story though.
So Rex needs a ghost writer.
Congrats on Wired, Rex. That’s excellent.
I’m not objective enough to write about it. Nor experienced. At least that’s what I’m going to say.
I think Metrobloggging has just become the new MNSpeak. There’s something to be said for civility.
Granted, since posts can be created by anyone, we could fill that need for this ourselves, but it was a lot easier when Rex did it for us. Here it is in a nutshell. You all bitch, but where are your posts? Matt just must not be interested in the same things Rex is, but it seems many of you are, but just aren’t willing to do the work that Rex did to bring them to people’s attention. Here’s a tip, just go to fimoculous, see what Rex thinks, then post about it on mnspeak, and it will be right back to where it was before Rex left.
The aggregator was totally badass.
Now that Tombo has weighed in, I have to. Ya’ll are right about the aggregator. I’ll do better.
Here it is in a nutshell. You all bitch, but where are your posts? Matt just must not be interested in the same things Rex is, but it seems many of you are, but just aren’t willing to do the work that Rex did to bring them to people’s attention. Here’s a tip, just go to fimoculous, see what Rex thinks, then post about it on mnspeak, and it will be right back to where it was before Rex left.
Tom-
It’s not our job to make us interested in posting content on MNspeak. That’s MNspeak’s job.
-Aaron
I have been observing MNSpeak for a while now, while changing my habits from reading mainly print news sources to getting my news and info mostly online. I like the idea behind MNSpeak, but as many have said here, the actual execution these days leaves much to be desired. I have been interested enough in the site’s history and development to go back and read a lot of the archived material. Here are the main reactions I have.
The choice to keep the site as only lightly moderated, as Tom Bartel once described it, is worthy of questioning. As Max has said, in a comment he made long before becoming the new editor, discussions at unmoderated sites quickly turn very unpleasant and mostly useless. (Example: Craig’sList Rants-’n-Raves.)
Matt’s still quite a young guy, so it didn’t surprise me that as editor he’d shy away from moderating discussions, because he’d likely find himslef overmatched. But Max ought to be able to do fine moderating; it’s clear he’s already been toning down his former tendency to be, at times, critical and argumentative, now that he’s in the middle, as editor and facilitator. And he writes well, and has a good sense of humor.
Max could also help things by going out of his way to welcome worthy newcomers, and encourage the regulars to do the same. And to encourage the regulars to go easy on newcomers.
But the clique-ish in-crowd clubbiness among the regulars, with their fondness for inside jokes, creates a huge barrier in the way of newcomers being willing to become participants.
I had to read a lot of archived threads to be able to begin to catch on about who among the regulars is who, and where they’re each coming from. It’s understandable that they keep their personal-info disclosures in their profiles to a minimum. But then, as a reader, you kind of need to create your own cheat-sheet reference guide (”can’t tell the players without a program”), about who’s who, based on stuff they’ve said in archived threads. And then you can wind up feeling like you’re cyber-stalking them. And then once you’ve learned to recognize the players, for your trouble you’re rewarded with the disappointment of watching them interact in just very predictable ways, in joking around and in giving each other a hard time, and that’s just not very interesting. Kind of like on a lame reality show on TV, where it’s expected that the participants always need to be stirring things up with one another.
And it would be good for the very frequent regular commenters to be encouraged to comment less frequently. . . in the interest of quality over quantity. The regulars tend to monitor the site throughout their workday hours, watching for each next chance to chime in, and for whenever any other regulars refer to them. That puts any newcomer who can’t be doing that (because of the requirements of their jobs) at a conversational disadvantage. The MNSpeak logo says “All Day, All Night”. But the reality is much more “All Day, while bored at work; not much at night.”
MNSpeak attracts very few women who aren’t still quite young and into lots of nightlife. That’s a big gap, a big missed chunk of the potential audience and contributors. I’m confident that part of the reason is the flirting and bawdiness by some of the young-women regulars, who seem to have excessive needs to have any guys, whether young or not, paying attention to them. That’s usually guaranteed to put off women who are a little older and aren’t flirty and bawdy. Here again, the moderator could excercise some useful influence.
Another disappointing pattern is when on occasion someone submits a genuninely informative or insightful comment, but the regulars just ignore it, as they revert to their in-jokes and sniping. Maybe I’m not typical, but the reason I’m intrigued by MNSpeak is its potential for providing lots of good user-contributed info, on subjects the contributors have some genuine expertise in. Not in-jokes and sniping.
I have also tried out the Strib’s Buzz.Mn site, which is more moderated, and obviously aimed at more of a family-newspaper audience. So far, I haven’t been impressed there. The thread topics have tended to be duds. And so many of those commenting, though more civil and much less clique-ish than MNSpeak’s typical participants, tend to want to just ask rather uninformed questions, or speculate wildly rather than contribute reliable info. (Like, why not first do a simple little bit of Googling on the topic, or see if Wikipedia has something good on it?)
Tom Bartel has complained at various times that the MNSpeak regulars aren’t shouldering enough responsibility for the site’s quality and success. In that MNSpeak is a commercial venture of the Bartel family (which is fine with me), seems to me that that should be mostly up to them, as the proprietors.
I will be happy to see MNSpeak survive and thrive. Or else fall by the wayside and get supplanted by someone else’s better version. I’ll direct my online reading attention to whichever one or ones are most consistently displaying good info on subjects I’m interested in.
Tree House Guy,
Interesting observations, all of them very valid. What specific actions do you think can be taken to remedy the problem(s)? How exactly would one go about encouraging less superficial discourse and drawing in more women and newcomers?